From a facebook conversation this morning (edited only for formatting, removed names and timestamps):
she
Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods - Albert Einstein
me
"I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the lawful harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind... If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
(ps, I read your comment like 80 times)
she
"likes this" I thought this quote was interesting bc I didn't know Einstein gave a shit about g-ds..
me
Einstein was a non-practicing Jew; the first part of my last quote was a response to a telegram from a Rabbi reading, "Do you believe in God? Stop. Answer paid. 50 words." ...His philosophy was closely pantheistic: everything in nature across the Universe, especially natural law and existence themselves are (is) one, and that is identical to God; but that the concept of God is not a sentient being having created or actively influencing the Universe, "He" only exists philosophically. If God is all there is, It is a law that causes effects to occur in its own cosmological soup of matter/energy... If God is sentient, it is because we are sentient: a way for the Universe to know itself, as He has no sensations or experiences.
Einstein's passionate, admittedly child-like curiosity for the inner workings of the cosmos were, in his words, an attempt to "know God's thoughts; the rest are details."
me
Einstein also followed Schopenhauer's World as Will and Representation:
-Man can do what he wants, but never choose what it is that he wants.
-human experience of things consists of how they appear to us, rather than directly comprehending things as they are in and of themselves. (Phenomenon vs. Nuomenon)
...as a physicist, he refused to accept the literal randomness in quantum mechanics that require probability rather than constants.
"I am convinced that He does not play dice."
This is the quote that got me researching his life and philosophy aside from just his patents, theories, formulas, and moustache.
me
(Wikipedia:) Like many other aesthetic theories, Schopenhauer's centers on the concept of genius. Genius, according to Schopenhauer, is possessed by all people in varying degrees and consists of the capacity for aesthetic experience. An aesthetic experience occurs when an individual perceives an object and understands by it not the individual object itself, but the Platonic form of the object. The individual is then able to lose himself in the object of contemplation and, for a brief moment, escape the cycle of unfulfilled desire by becoming "the pure subject of will-less knowing." Those who have a high degree of genius can be taught to communicate these aesthetic experiences to others, and objects that communicate these experiences are works of art.
me
I have personally contemplated my own philosophy for years, going from Christianity to agnosticism to atheism to agnosticism and so on til I started picking apart different /types/ of atheism and agnosticism, and recently, I've decided that the only agnosticism I have in being a secular humanist is:
Am I an absurdist nihilist existentialist; or am i a freethinking pantheist dadaist?
me
In being absurdist, I find no meaning or purpose in living in the chaotic Universe, and answering the question in the first place is both impossible and false--humanly, but not necessarily logically. I also have to keep in mind that that a logical conclusion denying Human purpose is not certainly falsifying. As a nihilist, I would argue frivilously, that finding an answer is totally irrelevant, as there is no answer because nothing means anything anyway. Information has no inherent meaning, and any meaning applied to any given information is relative opinion, deeming it arbitrary. As an existentialist, I must decide what meaning my experiences give this question, if any, and having assumed prescribed meaning is nonexistant, I will fail to come to a conclusion. My personal quest in life becomes adventure, and I will probably look for meaning in it until I die.
me
In being a freethinker, I must separate supernatural phenomena from my rational inspection of life. I must also consider traditional dogmata irrelevant, and logic king in solving this model. No one's opinion, even my own, can have any influence on my decision until completely interpreted and compared with fact. As a pantheist, I would accept rationally that a supreme being or event created the Universe in the form of an elegant recipe, and I must do so simply by contemplating natural events and laws, and tracing them back as far as they are observable. My only argument for a meaning to life would be that I am a way for the Universe to experience itself; that I and everything around me are one, are God. And I can't possibly prove this, so it is completely illogical. As a dadaist, this absurd illogic that disgusts me more than anything I've ever sensed, magically and patently generating the truest aesthetic I have ever witnessed. I don't know if that qualifies me as a genius or more of a nut.
me
Paradoxically, I must believe and disbelieve simultaneously that the God, in and as my Universe, is present and alive; and that life (is both undyingly miserable, and) exists just for fun; and on the other hand; I also understand that I can never know whether there is any meaning to it all; so I must also believe that God's existence, and the existence of meaning in life (which I generally accept to be interchangeable concepts) are neither true nor false.
So right now I'll have to stick with being a secular humanist agnostic about being an absurdist nihilist existentialist or a freethinking pantheist dadaist.
...At least that leaves room for me to see beauty in every aspect of life, and a basis for morality.
she
Bjustwow... I need to read this 80 times, but on a basic level I agree that life is definitely fucking miserable and incredibly wonderful at the same time!!
me
:-) Don't forget to expand them all haha. This was what I was trying to explain about personal meaning in life only being a goal, that we cannot know our purpose, if there is one.
she
I think we can know a purpose or atleast have one... (even if we refuse to acknowledge it)
me
ok so what is it?
she
You gotta figure it out yabig deal! It'snot like you can research it on wikipedia, or that it is the same for all of humanity...
me
Then it would be a personal goal. I'm trying to convey that a personal goal or definition of their own meaning is a separate concept than Human Purpose.
she
I would venture to say that if "we" do have a purpose collectively it would be to exist in Loving consensual harmony w/ eachother.. (like That will ever happen)
me
For instance, right now, you could say my meaning of life is the quest for the definition and existence of Human Purpose. Human Purpose is something that will be fulfilled though only if and when we as a community of organisms finish the evolutionary paths we started some billions of years ago.
she
I guess if you are looking at us from a science perspective we might as well be mindless insects (and to be sure the dumb ones are breeding!) Lol
me
*shrug...* We're not doing anything positive to influence anything other than our own wants... and the widely less intelligent offspring are a whole different misfortune.
she
I don't think Einstein chose to be an uber awesome amazing smarty-pants.. That's just what he was (in that particular lifetime) are you proposing we just drift through life w/out goals or ambition bc it's all effing pointless anyhow? I would partly agree..
she
But if I have to fester here on this squalid carcass of a planet.. Ima atleast make something of myself!
me
As I mentioned before, we can't chose what we want, only what we do. So yes, do what you want, but no, at this point I don't see a global point in living that seems like something we should all strive for. And as for the Earth being a putrid hole, I would beg to differ... It is the only life-harnessing seed observable so far... Humanity's action is the catalyst for shameful sordidness causing misery.
me
As possibly my favorite line in any Between the Buried and Me song goes, "keeper of the stars / I hope to never find / we are just mortal souls / left to die."
she
Yay thx! Indeed there are things I wish I didn't want, but can't help it in the least. And Earth itself is effing beautiful - it's US who are making it sad and ugly. I concur
me
In regards to drifting through life without goals or ambitions because there is no point, I would argue that we have built-in tools that give us inherent goals and ambitions:
A) evolutionary instincts
B) emotions
C) logical minds
...So we are able to make decisions based on what we have perceived and are perceiving, and can sympathize with how that will affect others' situations and future situations.
Also, because of emotion, we assign "good" and "bad" to events and situations, and strive to achieve more personal inventory on the side of "good" than "bad."
Hopefully, an individual can see that they not only need to strive for these pleasantries for themselves, but that each action also affects others' situations.
Therefore, we develop personal and public models of morality to persuade our own decisions and decisions as a people.
This indicates a partial description of Purpose, but not the end result.
she
Heynow, not everyone has a Logical mind. Some pple (likeme) are Completely emotional/irrational on a daily basis!!
me
you still have a logical mind or you wouldn't be able to follow daily conversations or solve simple tasks
tl;dr, you're a woman
me
We should continue this convo seriously though, it has been enjoyable.
--------end--------
(This was actually partially continued from a conversation in texts, hiighlighted parts of a piece of phone are as follows.)
she
Do you think the universe/vast emptiness is actually what consists of All there is, and somehow dictates our destinies?
me
Kinda
Destiny exists in a sense But i believe in free will and the universe may be one of many or an infinite multiverse
Free will is guided will to power, pleasure, and other goals
she
Oh wow, I have a hard enought time wrapping my head around one universe!
me
Me too but i spend a loooooot of time thinking about it and altered states put things in new perspective. I dont believe in astrology but i do in chaos theory
she
I was just discussing w/ someone how I feel that at times my life will be going on one set on track & then BAM! Something will happen and it seems like the whole universe will realign to construct a new path based on that change
It's like building blocks I guess lol.
me
which is kinda what you're talking about the butterfly effect
she
Def. Man, and sometimes it's something small like meeting someone on the street or something Huge like a car accident!
me
Totally. Think about how much the events over time are changed just by human interactions. From buying groceries to starting wars
she
I know! That's why it's SO Important to avoid negativity. I never even realized it til now. It gives me panic attacks.
me
Then think about how small and insignificant it all is compared to the enormous cosmic events that formed the universe
I remember talking to you about negativity not mattering in cali walking down winchester blvd
Not that i don't worry about shit, just gotta sort out what matters
she
Yeah. Well I don't believe in right vs wrong. But I have become so consumed by... Things not good that it's affective and it's pissing me off!
me
Oh! And yeah theres no good and evil but there is benifit and handicap. We just dont know whats what coz we dont know our purpose
[your meaning in life] is worth living for- you created your own free will to pleasure- thats not a purpose though
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